Mental Health & Faith in the Church ft: Laura Howe, LCSW

It's that time of the month, for our special segment: Clinician's Corner. Where we invite fellow experts in the field of mental health onto the show to "talk shop"!!

In this exciting episode of the Space & Grace Podcast, we are continuing the conversation around the Faith & Mental Health Connection. This episode features a special conversation with Laura Howe, LCSW, founder of Hope Made Strong and the Church Mental Health Summit. Laura, a licensed clinical social worker and trauma-informed counselor, shares her journey and expertise in supporting pastors to prevent burnout and navigate mental health challenges. Key topics include practical strategies for integrating mental health support in ministry, the role of peer support, and breaking the stigma around mental health in the church.

Join our host Ciara Helm, a licensed therapist and retired minister,  as she and Laura delve into the intersection of faith & mental health, offering valuable tools and real-life stories for church leaders.

Don't miss this inspiring conversation and be sure to check out Laura's work and sign up for your spot at the Church Mental Health Summit on 10/10/24 for more insights and resources.

Laura’s Links
Visit HopeMadeStrong.org for all the details and registration.
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hope_made_strong/ 

Show Minutes:
00:00 Introduction to Faith and Mental Health
01:09 Meet Laura: A Transformative Conversation
02:55 Rapid Fire Questions with Laura
06:37 Laura's Journey and Burnout Experience
10:54 Connecting Faith and Mental Health in the Church
19:02 Supporting Pastors and Preventing Burnout
28:47 The Church Mental Health Summit
32:53 Final Words and Encouragement

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Disclaimer: This episode is intended for entertainment and educational purposes and should not be used to replace mental health counseling or advice from your own mental health counselor. If you live in Florida and are interested in becoming a formal client of Ciara's for mental health counseling, visit her private practice website link below.

Transcript

  If you are wondering how to balance your passion for ministry with the ever growing mental health  If so, this episode is for you. 

You're listening to the space and grace podcast where faith and mental health connect. 

Welcome back church leader to the space and grace podcast, where we explore the intersections of faith and mental health, providing you with inspiration tools and real life stories to help you thrive in your personal and spiritual journey as a church leader. I'm your host, Sierra Helm, a licensed therapist and retired minister.

And today we have an incredibly special episode lined up for you as we continue the conversation of faith and mental health connection.  This week, I have even more resources for you from a fellow therapist who is also passionate about mental health and faith in the body of Christ. That's clinician's corner segment.

You know, the once a month segment where I bring on another licensed therapist to break down mental health topics.  Today we're tuning into a transformative conversation I had earlier this month with Laura, founder of Hope May Strong and the Church Mental Health Summit. What's so cool is that Laura combines her training as a licensed clinical social worker, addictions and trauma-informed counselor and compassionate fatigue educator to equip the local church to care for their community while supporting a local church leader to overcome and prevent burnout.

Trust me, you don't wanna miss this inspiring time with her. I left feeling so on fire.  So grab a cup of coffee, sit back, and let's visit together with Laura. Laura, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so excited to have you here. 

It's my pleasure. Love to be here. I think we're going to have a good time.

I do too. I really do. 

I, I feel like it's been a minute. We met through a mutual friend. For those of you who are listening, a mutual acquaintance of ours, Mark, who thought we were going to have a lot in common. And he connected the two of us and honestly, shout out to Marcus. He's completely right. You are also a licensed therapist.

Also really passionate about mental health and connecting that with people in the church. And then you've taken it even further and you're doing such incredible things in the community of the church for people who are learning about mental health and all those things. So I'm honored to 

have you here.

It's gonna be good. Yeah, there's a lot of people now starting to do this and I welcome them. People have paved the way for me and so let's all do this together shoulder to shoulder. 

This is our clinicians corner segment. So I always bring on a new clinician every month where we talk about different types of therapy or we just talk shop about mental health.

And so it's cool because you help bring the marriage between the two. It's been a minute since you and I have even talked. So I like the idea of us getting to know each other a little bit better. I love a good game. So I was thinking maybe we could do a quick rapid fire question, just getting to know you.

Let's get into it if that's okay with you? Yeah, sounds good. 

The first question is. What is your favorite way to unwind?  

Walking my dog. 

Walking 

your dog? Oh, what kind of dog do you have? I don't know.  COVID dog. That's really kind and sweet and  quiet.  He's a  beautiful blend of love. Yes.  That doesn't bark or jump. That was key for me. I was like, Oh my god. I, I asked the breeder, I was like, who is the laziest puppy?

That's what I want. I want the laziest puppy. Genius. That's really true. 

Most people go in and want the most outgoing. It's really all about the quietest. You 

mean the laziest. 

Totally agree. Okay, next question. If you could have any superpower, what would it be? What would it be?  

Oh, my goodness. Superpower?  Um, probably like the fast one where you can like,  I love destination.

I hate travel. So if I can get one place to the next without the travel in between, that would be so much fun. Ooh, that's a good one. 

Okay. Are you a morning person or a night owl?  

I'm one of the boring adults that are like the in between. When a company can leave by 9. 30 so that I'm in bed by 10. 30. But I also like a quiet, slower morning.

I don't know, I've never fit in that category. That's fair. So, yeah, no, probably if I had to pick. I am most alert in the morning. Okay. I get 

that. I think I'm more productive in the morning. 

Yes, 

definitely. And I am definitely, I don't know. I would never say that I'm a night owl. I'm not going to lie. I would love to say that I am.

I want to be, cause most of my family is, but I'm like, it's 930 and the lights are turning dim.  I'll take it. 

You could go home now, company. 

It's 930. That's the hardest part when you have a party, but I love hosting. Okay. But then I'm usually like, okay, so everybody's like, yeah, it's one of those. What is your go to comfort food?

Do you have one? And if so, what is it?  

I love popcorn. I love popcorn. Yeah. Go to your sweet. The kettle one, the sweet one. It's not like the candy or caramel. That's too much. Yeah. But the kettle corn is just, I love it. Beach, movie. Afternoon snack. Gotta love popcorn. 

Yeah, I agree. It goes with everything. My husband loves to put M& M's in a good popcorn mix. 

I'll take it. I really like this question. It's always different for people. What was the last book that you read? Whether it was reading or listening to. 

Part of a book club, and other people picked the books, so I forget the name. It was like a mystery book, I forget what it was, but it was a mystery book, and I read for pleasure, not for learning.

If I'm learning something, I feel like I need audiobooks or podcasts, um, but if I'm reading, I want like a novel, I don't know, a story, so it was a mystery, and I forget what it's It's the worst. I forget what it was called, but it was a mystery. Something about the last thing she said. But anyway. Ooh. Yeah. I watch TV more in the winter months when it gets dark earlier.

Remind me again where you live. I live north, so I'm pretty close to Toronto, Canada. 

Ooh. Then yes, it gets chilly where you are. Oh yeah. I got in Florida. Oh, goodness. By November, we are like, it's too cold. Thank you so much for all of those questions. I feel like I have a little bit of a better understanding.

You did some reading, a good cozy, like, evening, night, but also the slow mornings. It's nice. I agree. So, my first question, when I'm looking at everything that you've accomplished, probably through your journey and how you got to where you are now.  

Oh my goodness, what a story. I've been a clinician and licensed here in Canada as a clinical mental health social worker for 15 years and worked front lines for my community mental health clinic.

I worked in addictions, crisis, case management, peer support, project leads, different areas. So I feel like I've done a little bit, not of everything. I haven't done any trauma therapy, EMDR. That was never my specific interest. Feel like I've had lots of opportunities to see lots of things. And I just remember feeling  both a restlessness and I had a season of.

Pretty intense compassion fatigue and burnout, uh, pretty acutely where I needed to take some work off. Um, there was a season where we had a lot of newcomers to Canada. So I had a number of war refugees I was supporting. And so just the trauma is sticky. It sticks to us and it comes up at the least expected times as clinicians.

We are trained to hear suffering and to be with people through their suffering.  It surprises us when it impacts our relationships and our parenting and our well being. And, and so while I was on this season of healing where I was off work on sick leave, being very transparent, off work on sick leave, seeing counseling, speaking regularly to my doctor, trying to find balance again and learn how to care for myself rather than focusing all my energies on other people.

I was just like, Lord, How are you going to redeem this? I have colleagues and coworkers who are crispy fried. They're jagged. They are jarred. I don't want to struggle with addictions like many of my colleagues or  have divorce like many of my colleagues, or just be so grumpy. And I was like, Lord, how are you going to redeem this work?

Just, I'm so honored and so thrilled that God is faithful. And the intersection of faith and mental health and the role of the local church and how I believe it can transform the community really was awakened in me by the Lord. I wish I could say it in a non cliche way, but it just did. And it's been such an exciting and terrifying and thrilling journey ever since. 

Well, it's not cliche at all because it's so true. So I think that's such a beautiful. story of even in those moments where we feel our worst and it's real from our ashes to beauty it really is and it's just such an encouraging story to hear because let's be honest when I was in ministry I used to say sheep bite when you're a shepherd of some people of a flock sheep bite and sometimes it gets challenging to be able to continue on.

And so hearing your story of how you were able to take that and really move into this new season that God was calling you into  with that mindset in mind and understanding what it's like, that's huge. 

And, and at the time I felt hopeless. I felt like the time that I spent as a clinician was a waste of time and all it did, it was destroyed my soul.

That's honestly the hopelessness that I felt in that moment. And I want to. Hi, I'm coming back to that because  I know a lot of people who struggle as a clinician and think, okay, this is my only skill, but can I do this for 20, 30 years? Can I do this much longer? Uh, what sacrifice to my own mental and physical and relational wellbeing?

Am I going to do this? But nothing is lost, nothing is forsaken, nothing is forgotten for the Lord and he can redeem that and he can, he can, he has a plan and you are worth fighting for and you are worth seeking help for. Uh, refuge in him. And I'm saying this from hindsight. So obviously I'm saying it from the other side, which is way easier than saying it when you're in the muck and mire.

Seriously, hindsight 

is the best insight, truthfully. Oh gosh.  To get to where you are now, connecting your faith and your mental health in the church context. Talk me through how the two connect.  

Yeah, it's, it was a very frustrating journey. I would be working in a non faith or secular environment in Canada, our healthcare system is neutral or secular.

And so working in that and just seeing how we were starting to shift from being focused on clinical, but not focused, not shifting away from that, but  adding to it the benefits and the value that peer support add. And that was part of that project as a lead in bringing in peer support into our clinical settings.

And I saw how the community supports were trying to emulate what the local church organically did. Had.  And then when I was in the local church, I was frustrated. I'm going to be honest. It felt like there was this agenda and care and support were offered with strings attached. You had to show up to this service or you had to say this prayer or listen to this sermon, or you had to read this or that in order to receive love and care. 

And that wasn't all the time, but there was also, there was definitely a misunderstanding of what people needed and wanted and how to build those trusted relationships in the community from my local church. And I was like, man, if the church can learn from the community. And if the community could learn from the church, our, Our neighborhoods, our town, our city, our region can be transformed.

And when I would listen to sermons, I would hear the underlying principles of best practice that we would learn about CBT and about trauma informed, about strengths and all of these pieces that we are neuro biological beings. And I would hear that in scripture, but it was always never addressed that way.

And I just, so my, my,  My energy or my passion has come out of frustration, which is, I think, a great catalyst for many of us, a really great change agent. It's frustration  and it's a great catalyst. And so, um, so I really think that the best practices that we're seeing in clinical practice now work, not because they are researched, they work because they're based on biblical principles and the research is good.

solidifying or validating that. And, um, yeah, I just think that they're so intertwined and we are bio psycho spiritual beings in ourselves. And I always, yeah, that's a whole nother topic. And I, and so I think it's a component of our holistic and our health.  

Oh my gosh. You just got me so fired up.

Everything you're saying, I'm like, that's right. We can do this. Like, it's just so exciting. So just knowing that there's other people there who get it and knowing like, 

yeah. 

Being able to help pastors to understand that because there's also, I've had, and I'm not sure if you've experienced this. I'm sure you have where there's a little bit of apprehension because people view mental health.

Like it's, you're going outside of your faith to be seeking out like therapeutic support or resources and things like that. Sometimes it can be almost taboo in the church. And so getting pastors to understand that truthfully, when we look at it with. There's so much scripture that supports that your mental health is important and understanding how much God cares about those things and even walking through your grief.

And it's an incredible story that I think sometimes we lose pieces of. And some pastors have a hard time being okay with connecting the two. 

Yeah, I, there definitely is that out there. There's those people who are still struggling. That mental health is a real thing. Think the loneliness and the trauma that we've experienced globally has really leveled the playing fields where we realize now that  mental health is health and mental health is part of our health.

And that without mental health, then are we truly flourishing? I think that question has been asked and answered, but what I think the struggle is for pastors and for churches is, so what is my role in that? Where do I, as a ministry leader. Speak into that space. So now that there's this feeling, okay, mental health is important.

It's valid. It's part of who we are and how God created us. And we, we need to  pay attention to that. What is my role as a church leader and as a spiritual guide? And I think that is where the struggle has been the most. 

You started Care Ministries and it has had this incredible impact on the community and in the church.

What would you say to a pastor that is  Trying to figure out what my role is. 

Yeah, I think this is a really common and normal question. There's no shame in asking this question saying, Hey, hold up. I went to seminary. I went to school. I feel called to lead people spiritually in discipleship and becoming more like Jesus. 

But now that I've been in this for a while, I'm realizing that, um, people's discipleship journey and their wellbeing journey and, um, their faith journey is intersecting with the trauma that they experienced and the biological experiences they have around anxiety and relationship issues. All of a sudden things become a little bit more complex.

And that is so, so important. True for real life, we could read in books,  especially as clinicians, we read case studies and books and we're like, Oh, we got this. We come out to real life. We're like, Oh, jeez, what do I do with all of this? And so I think that experiences, we need to normalize that for pastors.

There's no shame in not being an expert in every single area. And so when a pastor asks, what is my role?  And I often talk about the value of peer support because like I said before, when the local church is able to show up and be a place of community, be able to invest in people's sense of purpose and are able to offer hope, they are creating such a strong foundation for people.

I really truly believe that the church is a place for belonging, purpose, and community. And hope. And if the church can really lean into those three spaces, then you are doing your job, you are caring for your people. And if, and when someone requires a more specialized support, have amazing partners to be able to connect with clinicians and mental health professionals to be able to refer to, there's a lot of people.

that are trying to professionalize church. Build in counseling programs. And I'm not against that. I'm a clinician. I think more counseling, the better. Hurrah. I really want to advocate for that. But I think that would exclude so many local churches who just don't have the resources or the people to be able to do that.

And just, I just want to make sure churches know that if you infuse belonging, so creating safe communities that regardless of where someone is coming from, they feel safe. safe and they feel loved and they feel seen if you create environments where you're fostering purpose and  valuing, valuing human life doesn't, it's not what you can give.

It's not what, how you can serve. It's not how you can, how beautiful or how smart you are. It's you. You are a valuable. beautiful child of God as you are. And then if we can offer hope, then those three things, belonging, purpose, and hope would create, will transform your community by just infusing those. A church care ministry needs to be as unique as the congregation and the culture and the community that it sits in.

And so that's when we think of client centered work. We need community centered care ministries. And so, um. Amen. Yeah. So be the church. If you can be the church to your people and infuse belonging, purpose, and hope, then you are caring for your people. Well.  Amen, absolutely  

When pastors are learning how to do this I have found even with the churches that i've worked with there's a little bit of a fear of finding that balance And taking on too much when you said that it simplifies it really one of the things that you mentioned that you experienced as a clinician and When I was in ministry, there was different hours, but we never clocked out.

So there's this fear of taking on one more thing. How do you support pastors as they're walking through this and prevent burnout? 

Yeah. That's what we say at Hope Means Strong is how do we help churches care for the community without burning out? Because that's the only way that we're going to be sustainable and effective.

And so talking a lot about boundaries, talking a lot about the difference between enabling and empowering, talking about how to build trust with partners. There's this trust component that I can't refer out because what if they say this, or what if they don't? If you refer out, does it mean you walk away?

Like how do you build trusted community partners that you feel confident in? And so there's lots of different ways and methods in, in looking at care ministry.  Just one aspect that I talk about is there are three different types of caregivers in your church. There's peers, there's pastors, and there's professionals.

And you are able to access all three and each have a distinct role. and function. And as you're a pastor, you don't have to be a professional. And as a pastor, you don't have to be a peer and vice versa with the professional and the peer, they don't have, you don't, you're not responsible for the other functions that ideally we'd engage in all three areas so that someone feels support.

But yeah, lots about boundaries, a lots about, you know, referring and building up a team and having opportunities of rest. And building resilience and all of those things for sure.  

So are there signs that like pastors should look out for then as they're learning how to bring that balance in some early signs of fatigue or burnout?

Yeah, the difference between compassion, fatigue, and burnout, burnout is this experience or state of being where you're weary and you're worn out for lack of satisfaction in your job. Or you feel that You're not being represented well or paid well, there's stressors and fatigue adds a different layer that a lot of people and ministry leaders specifically don't understand if we're speaking with clinicians, you guys know all of this, that compassion fatigue is the exposure of trauma and how that impacts your ability to care and have empathy for yourself and care and have empathy for others.

And so I would say for pastors and for ministry leaders who might not realize that they are starting to be fatigued  Because they're doing amazing compassionate work not as not for any fault of their own is not a sin. It's not a weakness It's not a lack of leadership as you're doing caregiving work.

It's a workplace hazard. We'll say Is the fatigued and it is the um numbing of your emotions and I certainly agree experience. This is when you're talking with someone, we all have our caring face where we furrow our brow. We lean in and we have that caring face that we have.  But meanwhile, in your head, you're thinking about lunch and what you're, who do you have to pick up tonight and what's happening in the evening and all of these things.

We all do that. But when you see that as starting to happen over and over, then that's a red flag or a sign that it's overwhelming. And then one other sign that  We actually dive in more. We get the sense of over responsibility that God put me in this person's life and I'm the only person that's able to help them.

And so we become enmeshed in someone else's story. And this happens a lot with ministry leaders. There's not this separation of relationship. They skip lunch. They stay late. They step over boundaries because they  over involved and called to this person's work. And that actually is a symptom of compassion fatigue. 

Active listening is such a hard thing to do when you're just empty.  You just don't have it in you. And that I'd love that one. Cause I think that there have been, even when I was going through some really hard stuff and I was in ministry. Going to some people who were in their care role. And I remember they asked me the same questions multiple times.

Like I remember I went to them for advice before I even went back to school. And then when I was packing up my stuff, after I retired to go into full time working as a therapist, they were like, where are you going? And I was like,  I'm so confused because I know we talked about this, but I'm sure that there are so many listeners who have had that happen to them and who have also done that themselves, but recognizing that might be a sign to pay attention to is such a good, good indication.

I sent one of my major signals before I went off to work. For a couple, seek counseling and support and find balance. It was the signal that my work was being impacted and I was totally blind to the impacts of Compassion Boutique at home. And that's probably a whole nother podcast. I, I didn't notice how unwell I was becoming until it impacted my work. 

Yeah.  Listen, if you're saying you'll come back on to talk about compassion fatigue at home, I'm totally fine with it.  Just the truth, right? There, there is, it impacts every part of you. I think also having a really good balance of your self care and being able to withdraw and know when you need to withdraw is a huge part.

Like when I was working in human trafficking, I would always have, I had the safe place where my husband and I would go and just sit in silence on a bench and I was like, okay, this is my life. That is not my life. I am safe. But it was a hard thing when you're in the trenches to keep that separation and still be compassionate.

It's a hard balance. Yeah, so hard. Um, I've had conversations with pastors who really have struggled. With even admitting that they have mental health issues to their church, because 

when you're in leadership, there's almost this feeling that you don't get to be human. So helping to understand that we're breaking the stigma by also being open and honest.

What are some steps that you think that leaders can take to ensure that they're caring for their own mental health? 

It says in Matthew 11, and I can't remember the verse, and if Matthew 11 is wrong, someone will comment and correct that for me, but I believe it's in Matthew 11,  not a theologian here. It says, come to me, all who are weary and heavy burdened, and I will give you rest.

And we think of that, but the very first step is come to me, all who are weary. So you first have to know that you are weary. I think half the time leaders are just moving so fast. They don't have any opportunities for self reflection. They don't even, they can't say how they are doing. That is Pandora's box.

That is a barrel of monkeys that they do not even want to open because they don't know what would come bounding out of that. And I think the very first step is having some sort of. of system, opportunity, step, tool to have some sort of self reflection. And I talk about it, this is going to be really common for clinicians, is on the scale, the 1 to 10 scale, how are you doing?

Or the green, yellow, red scale. Pick a num pick a color, pick a number. Have some sort of scale work, because it's so hard to Put emotions into words. It is almost impossible, but when you put it into colors or numbers, you can work with that. It quantifies what someone is feeling.  And so we then be able to find out if, if you're a seven today and tomorrow, you're a seven.

Six. Okay. What happened? And you'll be able to have conversations around that. And I remember I was working with a little kid. Now I know we're talking about pastors, little kids and pastors. We're not that much different. And this kid said he's purple. And I was like, okay, cheeky little six year old you're in kindergarten.

You're learning your colors. There's no purple on here. I was, we were just teasing it back and going back and forth and he goes, yeah, but I'm purple because blue I'm sad and red I'm angry and blue and red make purple. And I was like, Ooh, the insight that that he was able to have as a young, young child was so impactful to the caregivers that were in the room.

And so by having a tool to measure your well being to reflect as simple as colors and numbers is really key. Now, the second step of that is being able to tell someone whether that's your spouse, your auntie, your uncle, your best friend, your mentor, another. friend. I don't care who it is, but if you're able to reflect and check in with that person, then you are not alone.

The isolation and the shame and the secrecy that happens when someone is not well, a leader who is not well can be overpowering. And so having one trusted person in your life to be able to connect with and be authentic with is absolutely key along with Um, having some sort of measurement or reflection opportunity.

It's good to have somebody else who can speak into that. Even when we look at Proverbs and it talks about as iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another, that is such an important part of that. And whether that's your therapist or somebody who is over you, that's an elder or a mentor in some way. Or even just an accountability partner in ministry.

Having somebody there is so important because it can be really isolating, especially the higher you move up the chain in ministry, because it's just less and less people and more people that work for you and less people alongside you. And so it does become a little more isolating. Yeah, 

absolutely. 

I know that you have this incredible conference that you hold the church mental health summit.

And I just, I'm wondering for anybody who hasn't heard about it, could you give me like your elevator pitch, tell me about what it is and. The heart behind why you started it.  

Yeah. At Hope Mainstrong, we talk about care ministry and a good portion, as many of the clinicians here will agree, that mental health are the threads that weave throughout all of care ministry.

Whether you're talking about benevolence, food insecurity, housing, grief, the threads really are woven through as mental health struggles. And so I'm a big advocate and passionate about mental health. And on World Mental Health Day of 2020, when I first I was starting out. I was like, okay, I'm going to do a campaign.

I'm going to launch the church mental health summit. And so no, I said I was going to do a campaign on church mental health. Cause I was like, we have got to do a better job talking about this in the church. They're like, no, you should do a summit. And so definitely took them up on that and was so thankful because the church mental health summit was born in October 10th, 2020.

And it was. Absolutely astounding what God did on our first year. We had over 2000 people register from 60 countries around the world. And that was only after six to eight weeks of planning. Now five years later, we're anticipating close to 15, 000 people from over 125 countries, all seeking best practices and knowledge and training and resources on how their church can be safe places to support.

their community's mental health. And it is such a beautiful collaboration of speakers from all over the world. Just about every continent, I think, is represented. Every denomination, like we have, and it's, it is unheard of for speakers to be speaking at the same conference and to be in this interdenominational.

And I think it's a beautiful picture. That when you just get down to the brass tacks, to the basic foundations, we want to love Jesus and love people. And this is where we focus. And so the Church Mental Health Summit is a free online event on October 10th, World Mental Health Day, where ministry leaders and alike, anyone who loves Jesus and is passionate about mental health, are able to come and learn from these short, Pre recorded sessions from international thought leaders, speakers, a diverse community from different backgrounds and experiences and perspectives to learn about how they can care for their people.

And it's such a wonderful experience. Obviously there's tickets that you can purchase, but the core piece of the content is free and free on October 10th.  Yeah. 

Laura, that's incredible. so much. To even start out with 2, 000, you just know that you are truly in the right seat.  A timing. God is just ready. 

Yeah, the timing of it and the, it seems like the right place at the right time and the God's people are ready to say, you know what, we have a role to play. We have a responsibility. We need to share the love and compassion of Jesus into this space. But we're admitting that we don't. Don't know how to do this.

Well, people are stepping up leaders from all over the world are saying, okay, I am choosing to be a champion in my community and my church, and it is so beautiful and exciting to watch. 

I definitely will be getting my seat for the conference.  And for my listeners, if you are interested, you absolutely can click the link in today's show notes and you can connect with Laura and find out more information way about the summit and get your seats.

Cause I, I'm sure this year is going to be one you don't want to miss. for people who are listening and want to get connected with you. Where can they find you?  

Yeah, you can find all the information at HopeMadeStrong. org and you will find the courses, the cohorts. We have a podcast, lots of information there, and you can always reach out to my email at Laura at HopeMadeStrong.

org. Awesome. 

What final words of encouragement do you have? for anybody who's in the church who are passionate about integrating faith and mental health, whether it's a pastor or a church leader, a volunteer that would give them the encouragement to do so and step into that.  

There's this fear or nervousness fear might be too strong of a word.

There's this nervousness of, I don't feel equipped to do all the things that the, the needs are so complex. And I just want to encourage any leader, whether you're a clinician, you're a pastor, you're a family, friend, and neighbor, that you don't have to be all things to all people. There is no way you can be all things to all people, but we, you can do is show up as authentically you to see the authentic person in the, across from you.

And that's. That is the transformation there. And so don't worry about the training. Don't worry about the resources, the budget, or the programs. If you authentically show up to see and to value and to be with the person across from you, you are doing exceptional care.  


thank you so much, Laura, for joining me today and just for sharing your wisdom and your experience, it was truly an honor to listen and glean.

I'm leaving here excited about what God is doing in the church and how to combine the two and help others to realize that it really is a biblical principle. And there's so much more that we could be doing in the community if we would step into that new mindset. So thank you.  

It's been an honor and so much fun.

Thank you.  

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